Can Westerners really learn martial arts?

Yes, I'm getting deep here. Too deep for "answers" perhaps. Many Westerners are stuck in the scientific materialistic world, and will never get the "mystical" part of martial arts, even seeking to get rid of it altogether. Read the first paragraph here: http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/remembe... Many Westerners are also stuck in a materialistic kind of Judeo-Christian ethic, and seek to avoid the Eastern martial arts, because they can find none of their own black and white good or truth in the things which do not line up with their understandings of the teachings of scripture. (Perhaps because they do not seek it, IMHO). I think there is truth in both East and West, and that the martial arts do indeed and should combine mind with body with spirit. But it is difficult for me as a Westerner raised with the teachings we have here. Or is it truly difficult for all peoples?





All right. Discuss. Please? :)

Can Westerners really learn martial arts?
I'm not sure I understand your question, so I'm going to extrapalate based on the part that says "Will Western thinking be able to be as 'good' at the art, if they don't take all the spiritual aspects of the 'zen-ness' into their practice?"





There are two ways to take that: either you're asking (1) "Is Zen required to be good at the Martial Arts?" or (2) "Can a person who is not part of the Zen philisophical system learn the mysticism of the Martial arts?"





To address the first part of the question, not all Martial Artists even in Ancient Asia were Buddhist. As an example, there is a system of Kung Fu that was developed by the Muslims, called Tan Tui, that was incorporated into many other systems of Kung Fu because it was so effective. I don't see the Martial Arts as married to any particular philisopical system, although I as a teacher expect my students to uphold a certian moral character.





As to the mysticism, I'm not by nature a skeptic, but I've never seen anyone who can actually do anything supernatural in the Martial Arts. I think that Chi and all that are great ways to describe how different systems in the body interact, but that there are other ways to understand the universe that are equally or even more valid. I think the mystic stuff is not required to be a good Martial Artist, although they aren't useless. Knowing the limits of those systems actually gives us Westerners an edge, if you ask me.
Reply:yha thay can
Reply:Chuck Norris is so fast, he can run around the earth and roundhouse kick himself in the back of his own head!





Before the Boogieman goes to sleep, he looks under his bed and in his closet, for Chuck Norris.





Chuck Norris does not do push ups, he pushes the earth down.





Chuck Norris does not cut his grass, he "dares" it to groW
Reply:What are you talking about. Anyone can learn martial arts as long as they're interested in it, have the body, strength, and the will to do it.





Westerner, northerner, even eskimos can learn martial arts... It just depends on the person.
Reply:It depends on the art of course. Sure there might be some eastern philosophy and paradoxes but there doesn't have to be. As for the mystical part, there is no such thing. They are just as deluded as westerners when it comes to that. Chi doesn't exist, nobody can jump over 10 ft walls or stop someone with "energy". Sorry to break it to you.
Reply:yes, i 'm sure you can do it.
Reply:i think westerners could definately learn eastern martial arts. i must agree that there are things that seems mystical in eastern martial art(for example the use of zen in MA), but with careful study of culture or the background of the setting the MA was created anyone could learn the eastern MA.





besides this arguement could also work the other way, easterners can't learn western martial arts(boxing, westling, fencing, and etc.), because the scientific approach is hard to approach for a easterner who are used to non materialistic buddist like views. now is that statement true? no, not at all, or at least i hope not... ^^ so u see i think is very possible for a westerner to learn eastern MA as easterner could learn west MA.
Reply:I understand your question. Some will never get it. But you could.


First things first. Find a good master, study, ask questions. DO NOT hurry things.
Reply:Of course they could and so can you. Part of the essence of martial arts is being able to change who you are, including your outlook. You have to choose to change your viewpoint and way of thinking.
Reply:unfortunately, I didn't see the paragraph you mentioned in the link.





But Martial Arts has influenced my beliefs, and has strengthened my belief in God, and have met many people who also believe in God as well.





so yes Westerners CAN learn Martial Arts as a spiritual side, and use it to strengthen their own resolves as far as religion is concerned.





unfortunately the stigma that Martial Arts is just for fighting has persisted for many years, and most of these people just aren't receptive enough to let themselves think of the disciplines as a way to improve many other aspects of life, including their own spiritual being, because that's what Martial Arts was originally derived for, being able to focus on the spiritual side without hesitation or distraction





so until people can be more receptive to the true concept of Martial Arts, especially in the it's application to every religion, then I'm afraid that the majority of the people in the world including Christans will never understand it.
Reply:Although there are many americans that are good people, the american culture in general is very cocky, arrogant, and like you said, "black and white". It will take a westerner who doesnt follow "society's rules" to learn real, traditional martial arts. I was born and raised in America, but I dont act like one. I dont follow what society tells me to follow if I feel that I will be doing something wrong if I do follow it. I asked a question using Yahoo Answers about why martial arts are considered sports. I wont go into details here about it, but I got many responses that I feel didnt believe we as humans could control and strengthen our spirit (the western attitude towards martial arts). A lot of western thinking is unhealthy I believe, which is why I have turned towards eastern culture and philosophy.





Anyway, to simply answer your question, yes it is possible to learn the "real deal". I know I am using a quote from a movie (the matrix), but I believe it to be true. "Free your mind." Another similar quote from Bruce Lee is, "Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like water." If you do this, you to can achieve things that many people will say isnt possible regardless of where you where raised, what you look like, or where you live.
Reply:Of course. To the best of my knowledge, neither skin color nor eye shape has any effect on martial arts skills. I have no idea where you get the idea that the Judeo-Christian ethic is materialistic. 1st, it's not a monolith; 2nd, I guarantee you will find that the vast majority of Priests, Ministers %26amp; Rabbis will reject your hypothisis. The spiritual side of MA is philosophical, not theological. I'm Jewish, my master instructor is a devout Christian. There are organizations of Christian martial artists. The spiritual concepts in MA are complex %26amp; probably not easy for anyone. It takes time, patience %26amp; effort.
Reply:Simply put, if you want to learn martial arts find a good sensei that actually practices a (non watered down version) of Martial arts.This person should be well versed in the Asian arts, and you should be able to learn from his experiences. Read, know your history. Good luck. My boys are reaping the benefits of working with an excellent sensei and his 79 yr old Japanese sensei, whom still practices. They speak better Japanese than the Spanish required in school. Again it is a long hard traveled road but anything worth having, never comes easy.
Reply:You must define what you mean by 'westerner'.


The 'western' culture and philosophy is not conducive to introspection, but then this is not exclusive to western culture. There are facets of every culture that practice promotion of physical assets over the spiritual. The world today is too multicultural for such a sweeping prejudicial statement.
Reply:As a matter of fact it IS quite possible. I have not only been a master for 22 years, I am a staunch traditionalist. As for the more mysitcal side of the martial arts without that the Asian fighting arts are just a bunch of kicks and punches that have no real meaning.





I have spoken out many times against the trend in the west to get away from the roots of what the Asian martial arts are and trying to convert then into somehting that would be unrecognizable to the ancient masters. Without a strong sense of Chi (KI QI) the real strength and power of the Asian martial arts disappears and the practitioners lose what made their art effective and useful.





I have always stressed the need for understanding of the more esoteric and mystical philosophies of the martial arts to my students as an important of understanding the history of the styles.





I agree that most Westerners are far too unwilling to investigate these aspects, even thos of Asian descent lean away from that, as though asknowledging that aspect would somehow detract from the credibility of the teaching, when, in fact, the opoiosite is true. It is sad, really, that there are so few of us left to carry on the teaching....in my area, Fresno, Ca...I am only aware of only 1 instructor besides myself that places any emphasis on the more esoteric concepts of the the systems he teaches (Choy Lee Fut Kung Fu and Yang Style Tai Ch'i), and oddly enough is also a westerner. If there are more in the area, they have not been brought to my attention.
Reply:Western Martial Arts are FAR MORE ADVANCED than Eastern Martial Arts.





Some WMAs





Infantry tactics


Marksmanship


Vehicle Combat


Law Enforcement


Boxing


Wrestling





You just hear "martial arts" and think philosophical Asian combat/religious practices. Your definition is so narrow, examine the words martial art. The laws of physics still apply to the mystical martial arts too.
Reply:The western society has its martial arts too. No matter what you call it, boxing and wrestling are also martial arts (nothing in the word martial art says it has to be eastern or include kicks and nothing in the word art says it has to have codes of honor or stuff).
Reply:Without getting too deep into the Zen and Budo stuff, allow me to say that if it were not for the 'Westerners' interest in learing and subsequently teaching the martial arts (especially Japanese arts after WWII), martial arts would not be as popular and 'open' for learning as it is today and the rest of us, both in the East and West would not have been given the chance to learn some of these 'secret' restricted access practices.
Reply:How about ask Fedor Emelianko or Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic that? They both are consider to be the best fighter right now and have beat plently asian.
Reply:simple anser yes you can. any one can learn martial arts. it doesn't matter what you are
Reply:Yes, but I find that western martial arts schools leave the mystical part of martial arts out :(.