Martial arts elitist behavior?

I'm just curious if others shared a similar observation concerning answers given on the MA section. It seems that there are some philosophical differences that tend to have become degrading toward other people's style and schools. Although many people take martial arts for differing reasons, and certainly, there are good and bad schools out there, it seems that many online wish to bash other's MA training. Isn't the whole point of martial training for the betterment of self, or have we allowed ourselves to degenerate into common thugs? If so, what is the cause of this?

Martial arts elitist behavior?
Well there are some good answers here, but also some that stem from similiar elitism.





The truth is you see this with ANYTHING, from Sports Teams, to Cars, to Politics. Anything that people feel passionate about, they will speak passionately about it. Martial Arts goes a step further because it is so closely associated with combat ability, which is something at our very core we associate with success. Mostly it is a subconscious thing, but many guys (even "humble" Martial Artist) will not ever seriously commit that someone could beat them up, because in a caveman/animal sense that would be saying the person is better than you.





This is not a conscious thing, this is just something that still stems from our instincts.





Contrary to above I don't think Elitism comes anymore from MMA, Bullshido, or Traditional arts. I think it just comes from people's Pride in it period. The funny thing is the same people boasting that it is all about Pride, or because the UFC is sporting cash, etc. Are also being elitist as well. They bash guys who are literally doing Martial Arts for a career, they train in various arts, hone their body into a weapon, and do nothing but make themselves as good as they can be.





Yet instead of getting the respect they deserve, they get 'They are animals" or because someone flipped through an episode of the Ultimate Fighter (where 16 guys are trapped in a house with No TV, no phone, no contact with the outside world, and encouraged to put on a show because they know that equals more camera time a ton of egos, and know they all have to fight each other, people make some sort of judgement on those fighters, or say MMA is full of egomaniacal wreckless jock guys. When that is far from how the reality is.





I think it comes just like anything else, you have what you believe in, what you feel strongly about, and you defend it. I have seen just as many overzealous aetheist as religious zealots.





People defend what they believe in, to the point of outright degrading those who feel in opposite of them.





Whether they try to do it in more tactful manner, or accuse other people of being prideful or egomanical, they are doing it just the same.





Martial Arts is something people spend years learning, invest a lot of emotion into, and are passionate about. Naturally they are going to feel that what they do is the best because it justifies to them why they do it.





Not everyone is this way, but many people here are. The simple truth is if anyone is actually honest they say "Well I study this, and I realize that it has it's flaws, and isn't really as useful as this or that, but I love it, I enjoy it, and it makes me happy.





The truth is all Martial Arts have something you can take away from them, all can suit different purposes for different people. All have some sort of realm of effectiveness, even if that realm isn't in combat effectiveness but in personal development.





All these people who say that other people don't know what Martial Arts is about are the ones fooling themselves. Because Martial Arts is about many different things to many different people. To some it is a cultural interest, to others a fun physical activity, to others a means of hand to hand combat effectiveness, others it means discipline, etc.





Martial Arts are about what the practioner feels they are about, and it is different for everyone, and varies for everyone.





People are always going to be biased about their ideals, Martial Arts is no exception. You go to the computer section and ask what is better a PC or a MAC, and you will get the same impassioned speeches, the same slamming of the other side, and some level headed answers. You go to aCollege American Football section and ask who is better LSU, or USC, you will get the exact same thing.





You go to politics and ask who is right, Democrats or Republicans, again, same passion, same elitist behavior, same "We are right, they are wrong" type of things.





It is because these things aren't solid or concrete, they are based on biased, personal belief and opinion. Each side will use pseudo fact to back their argument, some will outright lie, and all will make outrageous statements about the other side as well.





So in short, I don't think you see this in just the Martial Arts section, it is everywhere. Martial Arts happens to have a lot of passionate people who have devoted some time, or at least some emotional investment towards a style, or styles, and each have a different idea of what martial arts are for, and what is better.





All in all, it comes down to the very basic instinct for survival of the fittest inside of us. We all want to be the best, we think our way is the best (otherwise why would we do it) and obviously what we think or feel is the right way. (otherwise why would we think or feel it).





Nobody is ego free in that regards, unless they just have an incredibly low self esteem or self worth.





Here there are a lot of Alpha types, you kind of have to be to get involved with Martial Arts and to spend the time and devotion to train in them. We are all ego driven, that is human nature.





Well that is MY whole theory which probably has some truths, some pseudo fact, and is trying to generalize something that can not be generalized, but I think you get the idea.
Reply:Some one who claims to have martial arts training and is concerned with whether his school is superior to another does not understand his art.





Most people who have developed their skills over a long period of time are humble and do not boast or threaten others.





Many people enter martial arts training for selfish reasons, but they should learn better if they continue the practice or way of life.
Reply:Simple: the very human nature of PRIDE. Once a person learns something that is thought to be unique, like: Aikido, Capo Eira, Jujitsu or Jeet Kune Do, etc. They somehow develop this feeling of invincibility and inevitably, superiority complexes develop. It's not because of the Art itself, but it all boils down to the attitude and psyche of the person. Like what you said, it goes against the very principle of the truest essence of any Art to degrade or even be prejudicial of other styles. Because there can be no "monopoly" of any kind of knowledge. Therefore, there should be no room for the typical "Mine is better and yours is not" kind of an attitude. The problem with the world now, Martial arts has been too commercialized, media also has something to do with that. Just like the popular UFC championships, it just shows what martial arts have transcended into. Any kind of art was never intended for such high-profile exposure of their skills, (although it was proven to be unavoidable) but it's more of a spiritual undertaking to have a sense of control of our inadequacies and improvement of such. The "self-defense" or "sporty" part of it is merely secondary. Of course, most martial arts have been borne out of survival against any invading foreigner based on history, but there are some people who have studied martial arts out of their insecurity for themselves because they were bullied when they were younger, so this undertaking is to somehow "prove" to themselves that they cannot be bullied anymore. So, it's more of a personal undertaking with an underlying vendetta of some sort. Despite this, there are MA practitioners who still believe in the "old ways" and never really look down on other styles but rather have a sense of "respect" for them because there is no single "perfect" art, even if Bruce Lee himself created JKD (JEET KUNE DO) which was a fusion of all the known martial arts, still there are flaws. I think any person who is interested in any form of Martial Art should ask themselves first if they are disciplined enough and what are their intentions why they're taking it up? Is it for self-improvement or merely to brag? which goes against any form of art (except the illegitimate ones that were merely created for fighting.) If a person conforms to the very reason and essence of any art and aim to control any violent human instinct, then there is no reason for them to be common thugs once they decide to be trained. Besides, as the saying goes: "The greatest enemy lies within.", any form of Martial Art therefore is aimed to discover and know oneself better by being able to control ones' natural inadequacies. People should have this attitude therefore.
Reply:some one who bashes another obviously has not understood one of the basic lessons in MA nl. Respect. A true martial artist trains for years to learn how to master and perfect whatever he is taught. This alone merits respect from any other descent artist. However there is a difference between a true martial artist and the pretend artists: the sort of guys who follow 3 lessons of this and 3 of that and after a few months claim to know martial arts. learning martial art is is indeed a long process of improving your self the true and only lesson in martial art
Reply:Yes.. It apalled me at first.... All i read was the style I had learned was junk.. and this style and that style was everything.... so my first reaction was to find this style and that style and find out... joined a local gym, and found out that it is no better than what is had learned, but no worse either... and got me back into training.... My guess is that the ppl on here bashing a particular art have no idea of what it is really all about, and are just too immature to find out... there really should be a flag telling us the age and/or IQ of the answerers... but stick wih this section and you will figure it all out soon enough ... (I thank the arogant little pricks, for getting me motivated enough to get back into training, no matter what the syle)
Reply:Come on guys,this is just the same as on the automotive forums.


Ford! Chevy!..... No Ford is no good!........No Chevy is no good!





You know either one will get you back and forth to work,and go fast if you hop it up.





Same thing here.........Politics
Reply:I will add my two cents here even though there are already some good answers to this question. I learned a long time ago that even a style I may not like or have an affinity for I can still usually learn something useful from. I guess some individuals are just too insecure in their own knowledge and skill that they are threatened by others and feel that they have to defend their own styles to the point that they do rather than let their knowledge, skill, and abilities speak for itself.
Reply:I like to call it the " my dad can beat up your dad " theory.
Reply:I think alot of this behavior is the result of the example that the UFC has set. Its all about winning, money, and trash talking. That's it. Look at the way Dana White talks to his fighters and the media. Curse words everywhere. Look at the disrespect the fighters and coaches in the Ultimate Fighter display. Hughes and Sera despise eachother and make no effort to disguise it. And then their students follow suit. Martial arts USED to be about mutual respect. Now its declined into trash talk, ego, and arrogance.
Reply:Try not to let what you know in reality get confused with what you read on here. At first I really thought that a lot of the answers were really just joking around. I was honestly not aware of 12 year old black belts in any style. At that rate by the time someone is 18 they are an official master of several styles with the certificates and medals to prove it.





Instead of teaching patience and fortitude, there are some schools out there who have cashed in the desire to have what you want, and have it now. You can't really blame the students, as they have just not been taught the core fundamentals. They aren't going to listen to me or you. I have been involved with the arts for more than 40 years now, but there are people who have been practicing for 3-5 years that outrank me by several degrees.





Also understand that there is at least one kid on here who uses hundreds of accounts, with personalities, to make his/her views appear in the majority. To this sort of person, Yahoo Answers is no different than the video game they were just playing minutes before. Wikipedia is not a factual source and video games are not an equal substitute for sparring.





If you just ignore the questions about who would win in a fight, and which style is best, you rarely see these characters. When they do try to answer seriously it is pretty obvious, as I have seen references to "Judo Chops" and "Judo Grabs" on here in just the past month. If you know the proper terms, do not correct them. That is just enabling the behavior.
Reply:Most students of the martial arts apparently do compare 'their style/system' with other styles and systems, it is human nature to compare oneself or ones possessions with others, it breeds greed and discontent.


Virtues such as humility, integrity, indomitable spirit are prayed up and down a lot of dojos/dojangs, but often they are nothing more but lip service.


It is the job of the senior grades to instill these virtues in the junior students, you'll also find that the senior grades talk a lot more openly and non-judgemental about other styles, exchange each other, and try to find out about shortfalls and possibilities for improvement in the various systems.


I guess you find a lot of immature characters out there who are mouth artists rather than martial artists...
Reply:Simply put it is VANITY passed off as PRIDE.


PRIDE is based on things accomplished with the realization it could have gone either way no matter what method your opponent used.


VANITY is based on what someone would like to be able to do or imagines they could do because of their chosen method or worse what someone con man told them they would be able to do.





God bless the winner who doesn't need a "touch down dance"
Reply:It's common, but I believe born of Cinema. In Cinema everyone always battles for the honor of their styles, and the star, whether Jean Claude Van Dame, or Jet Li, always studies the best style, from a great master who, though underappreciated, teaches by far the best style.
Reply:I don't worry too much about it.


My guess is people who do the most style bashing are the people who wouldn't know a stance from a kata. They also have a deep misunderstanding of what the martial arts are all about and think some secret training will allow them to take on hardened criminals out in the street after two months.





The question, to me, is this: Have you studied both styles you're comparing? How deeply have you gone into them? If you're not an expert in both, how can you be an expert at comparing them?


And since these people are talking about all the great real fights they plan to get into, you can be sure they haven't even gone half-way deep into one style. They wouldn't be walking around with a chip on their shoulder the size of Mt Rushmore if they had.
Reply:This has been apparent, and someone asked a good question related to it maybe a week ago.





I consistently say that all martial arts are good and people should do what feels right for them. If you don't like it after a while, go somewhere else. But anyone who is well trained in any of the arts will be effective at defending themselves.





I think the bravado you hear is mostly from young, mostly inexperienced kids who are either not into MA or who only have a limited exposure.
Reply:I have found the good folks at Bullshido.com to be particularly vulnerable to martial arts elitism.





And I am not surprised. I find such elitism to stem mainly from practitioners of martial arts that do not practice spirituality in any shape or form. MMA is a great example, and I've found them to be particularly snobby about it.





As a martial artist myself, I seriously cannot expect everyone in the world to understand that martial arts elitism is nonsense. I just leave em alone.
Reply:As mentioned before, it's pride or ego. Simply put, we all study in arts we believe to be of the highest quality for what we want (self-defense, fitness, etc.). If we didn't, we why would still be there.





Sure, there are people who will say "oh, you study %26lt;insert style%26gt;, thats ineffective/crap/the giant suck." And they might have some valid logic behind their statements like poor or unrealistic instruction they received in said style by an old instructor that has skewed their opinion for a whole art. Or maybe their experiences witnessing what is being taught in one style may not apply to what they want out of training; applicable self-defense vs. point sparring for example.





And then again, they could just be MA posers--the kind of martial artist who watches a few MMA fights and thinks they know all the facets of fighting. These people will often be either younger or have less experience in martial arts as a whole often not even attempt to study the style they are bashing.





In closing, a few of the answers already given are flawed. First, martial arts does not teach respect, nor is respect a basic lesson of martial arts. Respect is a fundamental value of human nature. Can martial arts foster respect--sure. But to say that teaching respect is a basic lesson is an exaggeration. If you doubt me on this, answer this question. How can you teach someone to give respect that has no desire to give it?





Second, spirituality and martial arts are not intertwined. Like respect, spirituality cannot be taught, only fostered in those that wish to express this quality. Furthermore, what makes the spirituality of a system one of the core factors in determining the quality of a martial artists? And what if a student has conflicting spiritual beliefs? Are they no longer allowed to train?





A few months ago I had a conversation with a MA instructor who believed (read: required) that spirituality be tied to training. I simply asked, "And what if an atheist or agnostic joined your class." The reply was "Well they would be allowed to train until they reached the point when they were ready to test for their black belt. At that point they would have to either accept Christ or I wouldn't teach them anymore." To me, that doesn't sound real respectful of another's religion if you ask me.





To sum it up, martial arts, at the core of it all, is the ability to defend ones self when needed. All the other stuff like respect, fitness, spirituality, and so on is just additional benefits for those that want to foster these qualities. The biggest ****** in the world might be the best MA ever, but that person's respect, or lack thereof, for other arts has little to do with their ability to protect themself.





Edit--JudoMofo did better expressing my thoughts
Reply:I am one of the people you are talking about , and I have no problem with physical exercise of any type.





My personal gripe with 90% of the styles out there is they claim to teach self defence to people when years of fighting has proven to me they do no such thing.





This is misleading if not outright fraudulent and if some kid logs on asking if Tai chi or TKD is the bext option for self defence I will not sit back and let some other kid tell him it is, when it could get him killed.





This is about people's safety.





Lastly people put too much on the whole betterment of self angle etc.





The 'martial' in martial arts does not mean that at all. Look up martial treatment, martial law, martial government.





It means force, and the definition in any phrase it can and is used by anyone, and it can be good or bad.





'Martial' art okay. Its a tool, not a religion. That's a fact until we change the name to 'betterment art'.
Reply:You are correct. It is more apparent on-line because people can hide behind their avatars.





Style does not matter. Rank does not matter.


The only thing that matters is the quality and frequency of the artists training.


There are no best arts, only best artists.





Of course this isn't new. I have been doing martial arts for a long time and it has always been like this. I believe very few martial arts practitioners are true martial artists.
Reply:The word "martial" does not mean fight or war. This is a mistranslation.





The real problem is that there are alot of "teachers" out there who appear to have mastery and really don't. There are many, many more McDojos and Black Belt Mills out there than most people know.





A beginner can be dazzled by the movements because they have nothing to use as reference.





I saw ONE video of shaolin-do and it was enough to know they are a fraud. Another fraud is Pakua Martial Arts. Yet, they have a big following.





I feel it is my duty to point out to anyone if they are wasting their money and time.





It is not about what they feel comfortable or good about.





It is about handing down a tradition, a legacy, and becoming part of that lineage.





The integrity of the martial arts is of the utmost importance.





The purer your art, the better you can use it.





Not only for self defense but for life.





If you try to do eclectic, you have to supplement with other arts. You should learn other martial arts because you want to, not because you have to.





So, I will bash whatever I feel is garbage. Not for my self... I gain nothing, but if if I can make someone see they are on the losing end of a bad decision, I do gain the satisfaction of having helped that person.
Reply:the point of martial arts training is to learn to fight, PERIOD.





it is the person that chooses how they apply this to thier life and what other philisophical, religious, spiritual activities they want to gain in life. but those activities and beliefs are not something connected with the trainign in martial arts themselves, they are a measure of the person and that person's choices in life.





people promote a lot of bs ideas, ideas that unlike debating god or whether or not superman could kick the crap out of batman we are dealing with an activity where one could get hurt if they train improperly and have false ideas about what martial arts is.





its these fluffy "oh, we should never spar, and but that is too deadly to train so I can't show it to you" ideas that are insulting and dangerous and deserve to be bashed.





I realize that this is the internet, however if even one person in one of these crappy schools with fortune cookie spouting teachers takes a look at thier own training methodology and questions it and is saved from having illusions about bieng a kung fu master without ever sparring anyone or training with full resistance, then the world is a better place.





all these fluffy statements do is put people's health and personal safety at risk.





If I was in the medicine section and told someone that taking cyanide is a good cure for headaches I would imagine I would be flammed.





Well maybe not, because everyone KNOWS that that is poison, however if they didn't, like many people are in the world of MA because thier teacher deludes them or they delude themselves. However if it was a doctor doing that then what would you think?





EDIT:


Actually the term "martial" is nothing but combatative. it comes (translated) from the root word of MARS, mars the god of war- unless of course historians are wrong and mars/ares was really the god of fluffy bunny feet, then I would stand corrected....





the term "arts of mars" is where the term "martial arts" is derived from. thus the martial arts, are actually the arts of war.





EDIT2: and yes, in training to be a warrior in ancient times many spiritual elements were involved largely to deal with the psycological effect of training and devoting one's self to learning how to kill people. Everyone knows the "spiritual" component of the asian arts, however look at the christian arts- the fechtbooks and mottos of teachers like leichtenhaur, george silver and such who promoted the idea of living a pious life before god.





point of this is, that spiritual components were there to balance the fact taht these peopel were using the techniques to go out and kill others and there needed to be some psycological balance for them. Today we are not soldiers if we are learning commercially, so these "spiritual" aspects are not necessary for us to justify in our minds why we are learning to kill people- because none of us will really use it unless necessary to do so. we do not need "honor codes" the law prohibits it.





If you are attacked, you defend yourself. Unlike in a prior society that might not have been as stringent and afforded more privleges to those in a noble or "warrior" class.
Reply:everyone is full of themselves unless they HAVE used their style in a fight (against an unplanned, unknown attacker scenario).





this is the only pain. that too many people believe they have the skills but havent used them outside of the dojo. thats not to say we should all go outside and fight a stranger, but unless the art has been tested outside the art, it has been validated at all.





its like playing video games and thinking you can win in a real war...





another thing is when a martial art has unrealistic claims, that just dont cut it. you may fool your own followers because they dont know any better, but the rest of us have eyes to see the crap.





like chi power to fight with. lol